Sync of mono Cert Store

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Sync of mono Cert Store

Rick Tillery
As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.

I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?

(I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)

Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?

Rick

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Re: Sync of mono Cert Store

David Curylo
Rick,

You can run `cert-sync` at any time to synchronize new certs with your mono cert store.

-Dave

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.
>
> I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?
>
> (I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)
>
> Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-devel-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.dot.net/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list

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Re: Sync of mono Cert Store

Rick Tillery
Thanks, Dave. Yes, that's how our install syncs in the first place.

The thing is that customers would need to know to run this on their machines in addition to modifying the system cert store.  (Plus, it's a bit more complicated & nonstandard because we have a bundled mono, while they're may not even be any system mono installed.)

I'm willing to create a method to automatically update the mono cert store when the system cert store changes, but I want to understand whether there is a different expectation about how cert updates are done & if there are issues to consider with such a tool.

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 5:04 PM, "David Curylo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Rick,

You can run `cert-sync` at any time to synchronize new certs with your mono cert store.

-Dave

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.
>
> I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?
>
> (I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)
>
> Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-devel-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.dot.net/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list



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Re: Sync of mono Cert Store

Alexander Köplinger via Mono-devel-list
When Mono is installed from our packages (specifically the ca-certificates-mono package*), we're adding a hook into /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ which runs cert-sync automatically whenever the system certificates are updated by the update-ca-certificates command.
This is the same approach that Java is taking as far as I know, so it should "just work" out of the box :)

I guess you could do something similar for your bundled Mono.

- Alex

* at least that's how it works on Debian et.al., I'm not really familiar with how we're doing it on RPM distros

On 14 Jul 2017, at 00:13, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Dave. Yes, that's how our install syncs in the first place.

The thing is that customers would need to know to run this on their machines in addition to modifying the system cert store.  (Plus, it's a bit more complicated & nonstandard because we have a bundled mono, while they're may not even be any system mono installed.)

I'm willing to create a method to automatically update the mono cert store when the system cert store changes, but I want to understand whether there is a different expectation about how cert updates are done & if there are issues to consider with such a tool.

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 5:04 PM, "David Curylo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Rick,

You can run `cert-sync` at any time to synchronize new certs with your mono cert store.

-Dave

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.
>
> I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?
>
> (I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)
>
> Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-devel-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.dot.net/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list


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Re: Sync of mono Cert Store

Rick Tillery
Just FYI, I don't see anything in the CentOS packaging to keep the mono cert store sync'd with the system cert store after the initial sync during install.

The method used by Debian appears to be use of a feature included with the system's update-ca-certificates script, causing additional scripts added to /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ to be executed after a certificate update. However, the update-ca-trust script, which seems to be the equivalent in CentOS/RHEL(/Fedora?), does not have a similar design.

We're considering a couple of approaches, and if the chosen method is not specific to our project, and if there is interest, I'd like to share it here for potential inclusion with the mono rpm package.

With that in mind, I thought I could share some options and ask the experts here for any advice or comments:

1. cron job to call cert-sync
2. use systemd.path (el7) and inotifywait (<el7) to monitor for writes to /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
3. use systemd.path (el7) and inotifywait (<el7) to monitor for reads from /usr/bin/update-ca-trust
4. use FileSystemWatcher to monitor for writes to /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
5. use FileSystemWatcher to monitor for reads from /usr/bin/update-ca-trust

In all cases, /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt timestamp would be checked against the last sync date (either explicitly stored or by referencing the timestamps in /use/share/.mono/certs) before calling cert-sync, to cut down on unnecessary syncs.

Clearly #1 is not a great idea (blindly, continuously polling for a very rare occurrence).

For <el7, #2 & #3 require installation of the inotify-tools package.  This is in the epel repository, but this repo is not enabled by default, and we are reluctant to force our customers to enable this.  Alternatively, we could include the inotify tools in our package, but this will require extra research and testing to ensure that what is included doesn't have other dependencies in alternative repos or have compatibility issues with certain versions of CentOS/RHEL.

Additionally, monitoring /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt seems like it could be a problem, as this is a symlink and might change going forward.  OTOH, the installation of mono-core uses this specific path for the initial sync, meaning a change here would already affect mono cert store syncing.

So at this point, we're considering option #5 vs a product-specific approach (syncing before each call back to our server), assuming FileSystemWatcher will work for both CentOS/RHEL 7 and CentOS/RHEL 6.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 7:01 PM, "Rick Tillery" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fantastic! I don't see that in the RPM, but I'll take a look.

Thanks again!
Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 6:18 PM, "Alexander Köplinger" <[hidden email]> wrote:
When Mono is installed from our packages (specifically the ca-certificates-mono package*), we're adding a hook into /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ which runs cert-sync automatically whenever the system certificates are updated by the update-ca-certificates command.
This is the same approach that Java is taking as far as I know, so it should "just work" out of the box :)

I guess you could do something similar for your bundled Mono.

- Alex

* at least that's how it works on Debian et.al., I'm not really familiar with how we're doing it on RPM distros

On 14 Jul 2017, at 00:13, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Dave. Yes, that's how our install syncs in the first place.

The thing is that customers would need to know to run this on their machines in addition to modifying the system cert store.  (Plus, it's a bit more complicated & nonstandard because we have a bundled mono, while they're may not even be any system mono installed.)

I'm willing to create a method to automatically update the mono cert store when the system cert store changes, but I want to understand whether there is a different expectation about how cert updates are done & if there are issues to consider with such a tool.

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 5:04 PM, "David Curylo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Rick,

You can run `cert-sync` at any time to synchronize new certs with your mono cert store.

-Dave

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.
>
> I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?
>
> (I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)
>
> Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-devel-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.dot.net/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list


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Re: Sync of mono Cert Store

Rick Tillery
Two items:

1.  It does not appear that FileSystemWatcher detects a file read, at least on CentOS 7.  If so, that would seem to kill option #5 below, which was meant to detect when the user executed the update-ca-trust command to trigger cert-sync.

2.  In looking around, I find that the Mac implementation actually uses the Apple TLS stack, which in turn uses the Apple certificate store, so there are no sync issues.  (I'm sure you all knew this, but it was news to me.)  That's very nice for them, and I'd hate to spend a lot of time on this if there was a similar solution cooking for Linux.  I do see a number of comments on work on different TLS implementations, but I haven't really seen anything that addresses the independent certificate stores.  Is there work being done on mapping the mono .Net certificate store to the system certificate store, so that whichever TLS implementation is used, there will be only one store?

Thanks,
Rick

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just FYI, I don't see anything in the CentOS packaging to keep the mono cert store sync'd with the system cert store after the initial sync during install.

The method used by Debian appears to be use of a feature included with the system's update-ca-certificates script, causing additional scripts added to /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ to be executed after a certificate update. However, the update-ca-trust script, which seems to be the equivalent in CentOS/RHEL(/Fedora?), does not have a similar design.

We're considering a couple of approaches, and if the chosen method is not specific to our project, and if there is interest, I'd like to share it here for potential inclusion with the mono rpm package.

With that in mind, I thought I could share some options and ask the experts here for any advice or comments:

1. cron job to call cert-sync
2. use systemd.path (el7) and inotifywait (<el7) to monitor for writes to /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
3. use systemd.path (el7) and inotifywait (<el7) to monitor for reads from /usr/bin/update-ca-trust
4. use FileSystemWatcher to monitor for writes to /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
5. use FileSystemWatcher to monitor for reads from /usr/bin/update-ca-trust

In all cases, /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt timestamp would be checked against the last sync date (either explicitly stored or by referencing the timestamps in /use/share/.mono/certs) before calling cert-sync, to cut down on unnecessary syncs.

Clearly #1 is not a great idea (blindly, continuously polling for a very rare occurrence).

For <el7, #2 & #3 require installation of the inotify-tools package.  This is in the epel repository, but this repo is not enabled by default, and we are reluctant to force our customers to enable this.  Alternatively, we could include the inotify tools in our package, but this will require extra research and testing to ensure that what is included doesn't have other dependencies in alternative repos or have compatibility issues with certain versions of CentOS/RHEL.

Additionally, monitoring /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt seems like it could be a problem, as this is a symlink and might change going forward.  OTOH, the installation of mono-core uses this specific path for the initial sync, meaning a change here would already affect mono cert store syncing.

So at this point, we're considering option #5 vs a product-specific approach (syncing before each call back to our server), assuming FileSystemWatcher will work for both CentOS/RHEL 7 and CentOS/RHEL 6.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 7:01 PM, "Rick Tillery" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fantastic! I don't see that in the RPM, but I'll take a look.

Thanks again!
Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 6:18 PM, "Alexander Köplinger" <[hidden email]> wrote:
When Mono is installed from our packages (specifically the ca-certificates-mono package*), we're adding a hook into /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ which runs cert-sync automatically whenever the system certificates are updated by the update-ca-certificates command.
This is the same approach that Java is taking as far as I know, so it should "just work" out of the box :)

I guess you could do something similar for your bundled Mono.

- Alex

* at least that's how it works on Debian et.al., I'm not really familiar with how we're doing it on RPM distros

On 14 Jul 2017, at 00:13, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Dave. Yes, that's how our install syncs in the first place.

The thing is that customers would need to know to run this on their machines in addition to modifying the system cert store.  (Plus, it's a bit more complicated & nonstandard because we have a bundled mono, while they're may not even be any system mono installed.)

I'm willing to create a method to automatically update the mono cert store when the system cert store changes, but I want to understand whether there is a different expectation about how cert updates are done & if there are issues to consider with such a tool.

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 5:04 PM, "David Curylo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Rick,

You can run `cert-sync` at any time to synchronize new certs with your mono cert store.

-Dave

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.
>
> I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?
>
> (I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)
>
> Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-devel-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.dot.net/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list


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Re: Sync of mono Cert Store

Rick Tillery
Has anyone done any work on mapping the mono certificate store (X509store?) to the system store, so it could be shared, as in Windows and OSX?

Thanks,
Rick


On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
Two items:

1.  It does not appear that FileSystemWatcher detects a file read, at least on CentOS 7.  If so, that would seem to kill option #5 below, which was meant to detect when the user executed the update-ca-trust command to trigger cert-sync.

2.  In looking around, I find that the Mac implementation actually uses the Apple TLS stack, which in turn uses the Apple certificate store, so there are no sync issues.  (I'm sure you all knew this, but it was news to me.)  That's very nice for them, and I'd hate to spend a lot of time on this if there was a similar solution cooking for Linux.  I do see a number of comments on work on different TLS implementations, but I haven't really seen anything that addresses the independent certificate stores.  Is there work being done on mapping the mono .Net certificate store to the system certificate store, so that whichever TLS implementation is used, there will be only one store?

Thanks,
Rick


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just FYI, I don't see anything in the CentOS packaging to keep the mono cert store sync'd with the system cert store after the initial sync during install.

The method used by Debian appears to be use of a feature included with the system's update-ca-certificates script, causing additional scripts added to /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ to be executed after a certificate update. However, the update-ca-trust script, which seems to be the equivalent in CentOS/RHEL(/Fedora?), does not have a similar design.

We're considering a couple of approaches, and if the chosen method is not specific to our project, and if there is interest, I'd like to share it here for potential inclusion with the mono rpm package.

With that in mind, I thought I could share some options and ask the experts here for any advice or comments:

1. cron job to call cert-sync
2. use systemd.path (el7) and inotifywait (<el7) to monitor for writes to /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
3. use systemd.path (el7) and inotifywait (<el7) to monitor for reads from /usr/bin/update-ca-trust
4. use FileSystemWatcher to monitor for writes to /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt
5. use FileSystemWatcher to monitor for reads from /usr/bin/update-ca-trust

In all cases, /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt timestamp would be checked against the last sync date (either explicitly stored or by referencing the timestamps in /use/share/.mono/certs) before calling cert-sync, to cut down on unnecessary syncs.

Clearly #1 is not a great idea (blindly, continuously polling for a very rare occurrence).

For <el7, #2 & #3 require installation of the inotify-tools package.  This is in the epel repository, but this repo is not enabled by default, and we are reluctant to force our customers to enable this.  Alternatively, we could include the inotify tools in our package, but this will require extra research and testing to ensure that what is included doesn't have other dependencies in alternative repos or have compatibility issues with certain versions of CentOS/RHEL.

Additionally, monitoring /etc/pki/tls/certs/ca-bundle.crt seems like it could be a problem, as this is a symlink and might change going forward.  OTOH, the installation of mono-core uses this specific path for the initial sync, meaning a change here would already affect mono cert store syncing.

So at this point, we're considering option #5 vs a product-specific approach (syncing before each call back to our server), assuming FileSystemWatcher will work for both CentOS/RHEL 7 and CentOS/RHEL 6.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 7:01 PM, "Rick Tillery" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fantastic! I don't see that in the RPM, but I'll take a look.

Thanks again!
Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 6:18 PM, "Alexander Köplinger" <[hidden email]> wrote:
When Mono is installed from our packages (specifically the ca-certificates-mono package*), we're adding a hook into /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/ which runs cert-sync automatically whenever the system certificates are updated by the update-ca-certificates command.
This is the same approach that Java is taking as far as I know, so it should "just work" out of the box :)

I guess you could do something similar for your bundled Mono.

- Alex

* at least that's how it works on Debian et.al., I'm not really familiar with how we're doing it on RPM distros

On 14 Jul 2017, at 00:13, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Dave. Yes, that's how our install syncs in the first place.

The thing is that customers would need to know to run this on their machines in addition to modifying the system cert store.  (Plus, it's a bit more complicated & nonstandard because we have a bundled mono, while they're may not even be any system mono installed.)

I'm willing to create a method to automatically update the mono cert store when the system cert store changes, but I want to understand whether there is a different expectation about how cert updates are done & if there are issues to consider with such a tool.

Rick

On Jul 13, 2017 5:04 PM, "David Curylo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Rick,

You can run `cert-sync` at any time to synchronize new certs with your mono cert store.

-Dave

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Rick Tillery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up my previous question (thanks Alex), we have a concern about changes to the system certificate store & synchronization with the mono cert store.
>
> I see that the system cert store is imported to mono on install (& we now do this as well in our install), but what is the expected approach to keeping the mono cert store updated? For example, if a certificate needs to be added or revoked, is it expected that the admin knows that the mono cert store needs to be manually updated too (and doesn't Java have a separate cert store too, meaning that must be manually dealt with as well?)?
>
> (I didn't find there proper search terms with Google to show me much about this.)
>
> Is there a reason not to create a method of syncing these, so changes to the system cert store automatically get copied into the mono cert store? Is there an accepted (safe) method of doing this?
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Mono-devel-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.dot.net/mailman/listinfo/mono-devel-list


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